Curse

Gigashadow · May 28, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Did you really find Orders to be worth it with a physical team? Because even with 5 physicals on the team, I was not impressed with it, or Dark Fury. You are investing in the crappy blood line, that one guy spends most of his time casting those 2 spells every 5 seconds, and someone has to heal up all that sacrifice.

The Riven · May 28, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Did you really find Orders to be worth it with a physical team? Because even with 5 physicals on the team, I was not impressed with it, or Dark Fury. You are investing in the crappy blood line, that one guy spends most of his time casting those 2 spells every 5 seconds, and someone has to heal up all that sacrifice.

I Agree with this, while the additional adren gain in nice and the buff from orders is a bonus, i personaly would rather add a commandagon with a few spammy shouts + other utility skills.

Carinae · May 28, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I consider that a very valid question. The idea is really to buff the lead melee and pick up whatever bonus you can get from the henchmen. There may be better ways to go with 1 player physway.
(There is always room for improvement in any build)

Of course, if you can get additional players you don't really have to adjust the build, just swap out hench, and the damage increases geometrically.

Gigashadow · May 28, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

What I found in my so-far unsuccessful attempts to run a H/H 5 physical team (well, unsuccessful compared with my current setup anyway), is that the melee AI is completely retarded and they don't even attack my called targets much of the time. Eventually they wake up and have to run over and attack the right things. There are no paragon henchmen (the best physical companions imo) outside of Nightfall, which means I have to make do with ranger henchmen, who honestly just aren't that great compared with the other options.

Dark fury is pretty much useless, my own char doesn't need more adrenaline because I have enraging charge, dragon slash, and for great justice on my bar. So at best, a paragon hero might be able to use it, if I slot one. Strength of honor obviously is for melee only, and melee AI sucks, so only I can really benefit from it.

What might work is 2 copies of splinter weapon, and one ranger henchie, who generally seems to get preferential treatment from the AI for receiving a splinter weapon. Splinter weapon is pretty amazing. So perhaps a N/Mo curses/prot (I prefer a user controllable prot spirit in my builds somewhere), Rt/Mo splinter/smiter, and a N/Rt minion bomber/splinter#2 or something of that nature; I haven't figured out exactly the setup here.

I just think the problem is that melee H/H AI is too poor, and the non-melee (but still physical) hench skillbars not good enough, to get good results from physicalway.

Jeydra · May 29, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The reason why we run necros is because h/h are too dumb to do something as skilful as managing one's energy. That would be the point - those bars require no skill at all.
And yet, I've managed to fail with them. I know.
And that's the whole point, when one chooses a playground and then pulls general rules out of that single experience. I know that Discord should work, yet I failed with it. I know that physicals should work - yet YOU managed to fail with them. And if we base our comparison purely on situation like that - if you are able to conclude that physicals are sub-par, then I should be able to conclude that Discord is sub-par.
And we achieved nothing.

Lol kind of because my original physical teams were bad. Once I switched to something that made more sense, I did complete what I set out to do for the first time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I just think the problem is that melee H/H AI is too poor, and the non-melee (but still physical) hench skillbars not good enough, to get good results from physicalway.

That's what I've always thought.

Anyway Carinae try this for me if you have the time. Can you H/H Duncan HM with Physicalway? You don't have to clear the entire dungeon. Just beat the first mob inside. I tried with standard Discordway and didn't manage - well maybe it's possible, but it would take a very long time of careful pulling and such, although I didn't bring Frozen Soil (standard Discordway after all). And of course one of the big factors against Discordway is that there aren't any bodies to animate beforehand. With 20 minions it wouldn't be hard to roll the group over, but you don't have 20 minions, or even 1, unless you run AotL.

Still, if you can beat that mob, I will be very much impressed.

maxxfury · May 29, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Still wondering who most people run disco? purely out of curiosity.

1> let hem cast disco on their own
or
2>force them to cast all the time

AtomicMew · May 29, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

@Maxxfury, usually let them cast on their own. Sometimes a clean spike against healers is very useful though.

Chthon · Jun 01, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Let me just say again, it is NOT all about DPS. You can't compare the DPS of a physical to just discord and be intellectually honest. A discorder can do so much more.

Quit spewing this crap. PvE IS about DPS. End of story. Take one team of 8. Take another. Assuming they are both able to survive, whichever does better sustained DPS is the better team. Period. Any non-DPS functions the team includes are only necessary insofar as they enable your DPS (by keeping you alive and able to deal damage, by giving you more energy to deal damage, by recharging skills you use to deal damage, etc.); beyond that they are a waste.

Yes, in a character-to-character comparison, it's not fair to look at a high-DPS character versus a mediocre-DPS-plus-mediocre-healing character and ignore the healing aspect of the mediocre-DPS-plus-mediocre-healing character. You're right about that. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM DOING. I am looking at 8 versus 8. It's possible to run teams with 2, or even 1, dedicated defensive characters and the remaining 6, or 7, almost entirely focused on doing DPS. The overall discordway team needs to match the DPS those 6, or 7, characters are doing. It doesn't. So it's inferior. Put another way, the total amount of DPS you add by giving all 8 characters some weak damage dealing ability is less than the total amount of DPS you lose off the 6 or 7 offensive characters you weakened to fit into the discordway model.

Improvavel · Jun 01, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Quit spewing this crap. PvE IS about DPS. End of story. Take one team of 8. Take another. Assuming they are both able to survive, whichever does better sustained DPS is the better team. Period.

The one that kills the enemy is the best. That is why AoE fire sucks in HM. You do sustainable damage - but crappy one that doesn't kill. A

Quote:

Yes, in a character-to-character comparison, it's not fair to look at a high-DPS character versus a mediocre-DPS-plus-mediocre-healing character

???? Spirit light, Mend body and soul, soothing memories, life, pwk are mediocre healing?

And are you telling me that those henchmen with charge have fantastic DPS?

Quote:

and ignore the healing aspect of the mediocre-DPS-plus-mediocre-healing character. You're right about that. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM DOING. I am looking at 8 versus 8. It's possible to run teams with 2, or even 1, dedicated defensive characters and the remaining 6, or 7, almost entirely focused on doing DPS. The overall discordway team needs to match the DPS those 6, or 7, characters are doing. It doesn't. So it's inferior. Put another way, the total amount of DPS you add by giving all 8 characters some weak damage dealing ability is less than the total amount of DPS you lose off the 6 or 7 offensive characters you weakened to fit into the discordway model.

So you use a solo monk on H/H?

Discord restoration - Discord, MB&S, Foul Feast, Spirit Light, PwK, Life, Rez, SoLS or other.

Discord curses- Discord, Enfeebling blood, Reckless Haste, barbs. Optionals like MoP, SoLS, rez, convert hexes, remove hex, weaken armor, rip enchantment.

Discord MM- Discord, Death nova, Animate minions, Aegis, PS, SoLS. Optionals include Bone horror+fiend (instead of minions), Biles, remove hex, convert hexes, rez etc.

So you have a spamming healer, a MM and a curses that can buff physicals.

Or lets say u want to abuse strength and honor.

So you drop the healing or the mm dude and add a roj monk with:

glyph of swiftness (air 6), RoJ, RoD, Signet of castigation, smite hex, SoH, heavens delight, optional, optional.

In my opinion Chthon, you need to stop thinking on 6 discords teams and that the melee physicals AI is as good as human melees.

The discords aren't damage dealers - they are support that deal damage when not performing their other functions and can spike important targets.

Of course if you only use one healer when playing H/H you might have a point. On the other hand if you can use it with physicals, I bet a necro/restoration will heal better than a monk hero or hench.

Even taken in account Ether renewal healer, you can replace the resto if you prefer and have the curses and mm discord.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 02, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I'm lost, are you arguing about:
Discord based 1 player, 3 heroes, 4 hench VS. Physical based 1 player, 3 heroes, 4 hench?

Or any number of players? And you have to consider what prof the player is as well.

Because when purely H/Hing I don't see how physical based teams would be good because ummm, melee hench AI sucks.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 02, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

I don't know what you guys are doing, but I run sabway (me as godmode dslash), a healer hench, a. nuker, a mes, paragon or ranger, and a dervish. I rolled through elonians vanqs in 10 days with serious problems on a total of 2 maps: Gandara and Joko's domain.

Has anyone even tried a hybrid? I have minions and melees up front with my curses necro to support us, usually 3 casters and 1 phys midline, and 2 backliners.

you don't need gimmicks to win, basic team setups (2 phys, mm, 3 mid, 2 back) that have seen use since prophecies work fine in most areas.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 02, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

I don't know what you guys are doing, but I run sabway (me as godmode dslash), a healer hench, a. nuker, a mes, paragon or ranger, and a dervish. I rolled through elonians vanqs in 10 days with serious problems on a total of 2 maps: Gandara and Joko's domain.

Has anyone even tried a hybrid? I have minions and melees up front with my curses necro to support us, usually 3 casters and 1 phys midline, and 2 backliners.

you don't need gimmicks to win, basic team setups (2 phys, mm, 3 mid, 2 back) that have seen use since prophecies work fine in most areas.

I agree, really. This entire thread has been a TLDR b*tchfest from page 2.

I havn't run discord way, but I've run both Sabway and Racway, and I can say Racway is probably a bit more efficient for physical dealing characters due to the synergy.

Sabway (and Discordway I'm assuming) synergy more with caster characters, while leaving the minions themselves to trigger Barbs/MoP and soak up damage.

People love Discordway because it's like Sabway, only with heavy spiking ability. And frankly, with EVERY other RPG out there I've played, it's ALWAYS better to eliminate one enemy at a time, because a dead enemy is an enemy that isn't hurting -you- and eases your time dealing with the rest. The same goes for MMO's. The exception being if your AoE abilities outpower your spiking ability.

DPS rules PvE on a basic level, I believe, because the faster you finish a battle, the less chance you're stupid-AIed team has to mess things up (with energy or otherwise).

The Riven · Jun 02, 2009, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

People love Discordway because it's like Sabway, only with heavy spiking ability

This is basically the heart of the matter, Discords spike is no greater than and a lot weaker than other comparable builds.

Though yes, its a bitch fest, a troll thread designed to aggravate those players who may have differing opinions on build viability.

Ratson Itamar · Jun 02, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

This is basically the heart of the matter, Discords spike is no greater than and a lot weaker than other comparable builds.

Though yes, its a bitch fest, a troll thread designed to aggravate those players who may have differing opinions on build viability.

First I want to get this off of my chest, you're the one who's trolling. Now, we can move to the subject matter. There's no other 6 heroes team build that can spike for over 600 after each player presses 3 binding keys and you can repeat it every 2 seconds to boot. You heard people here saying that the DPS isn't great to say the least and you went ahead of yourself and said that the spike is lousy as well. That's just not the case.

I don't like physway because of the AI, unless the players are the melee characters themselves but since we're in the Necromancer section of the site that's not the case.

The Riven · Jun 02, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

First I want to get this off of my chest, you're the one who's trolling. Now, we can move to the subject matter. There's no other 6 heroes team build that can spike for over 600 after each player presses 3 binding keys and you can repeat it every 2 seconds to boot. You heard people here saying that the DPS isn't great to say the least and you went ahead of yourself and said that the spike is lousy as well. That's just not the case.

Right... Molcoh was kind enough to post a few comparisons and examples of phys dmg, ill repost them here (though i will cut some of the post as it was quite long

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

my single target DPS will be around 140, while my AoE DPS from Mark will be 365. Using a Hundred Blades warrior will potentially raise this DPS exponentially, to well beyond 1000 DPS.

Now, please realize that a paragon attacking a target with a spear while standing in an Honor ward, pumped by OoV and striking a Barbed target under AR (that's around 0.9 attacks per second) will deal 16+15+15 damage per strike. That's 46 damage, disregarding the weapon's base damage, for an extremely conservative count of 41DPS... without using any attack skills. This alone beats Discord's damage potential. A Locust's Fury assassin will deal around 90DPS in this manner, also with no attack skills, and if you manage to find a slot for a 12-spec SoH, his damage output increases to 135DPS. Add GDW for 175DPS. This is more than the combined damage output from five Discord necromancers spamming their elite on recharge... without using an attack skill

The reason I am using physical setups for almost everything in this game is that physical damage is by far the most spammable source in the game, and it's also the easiest to augment, by the most possible options. Also, the best options for this are from my main primary.

As we can see, its not fair to say that discord has the monopoly on spike dmg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

I don't like physway because of the AI, unless the players are the melee characters themselves but since we're in the Necromancer section of the site that's not the case.

You yourself have said a 6 Hero team so a Nec primary with 3 heroes and a physical primary with 3 heroes can quite easily manage this

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Did you really find Orders to be worth it with a physical team? Because even with 5 physicals on the team, I was not impressed with it, or Dark Fury. You are investing in the crappy blood line, that one guy spends most of his time casting those 2 spells every 5 seconds, and someone has to heal up all that sacrifice.

That guy is responsible for *at least* 50 DPS

---

Anyhow, things not addressed:

Discord ignores LOS and with that positioning or need for good situational awareness. It's unbelievable how much time this saves.

Part of discord - which is see ignored here - is abuse of PvE skills to get clean kill.

Another part is skill slot and character slot cost.

To get effective physical way you want: Curses, Blood, Certain PvE only skills, Ideally certain paragon shouts.

To get good yield you also want to build against foes (condition removal, antiblock, hex removal ...).

Stuff you can not put on your physicals, so unless you are necromancer, you end up with one or two bitches.

Stuff that henchmen are incompatible with, being totally unable to fill bitch roles and severely lacking in physical department, rangers being mostly in love with [Kindle Arrows], paragon using spear as decorative piece, warriors, assassins and dervishes being melee (also, <3 [Dust Cloak]).

I see physical way being gods of effectiveness they are claimed to be only with two players in 8 man areas. Then, they work as advertised.

Difference is, discord is much simpler and less dependable on rest of party, damage dealers can comfortably carry their own bitch-stuff (which is so simple that even henchmen sometimes carry it.).

Power vs ability to control party composition curve of discord is straight line, curve of physical way is a bit more exponential.

The Riven · Jun 02, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That guy is responsible for *at least* 50 DPS

Part of discord - which is see ignored here - is abuse of PvE skills to get clean kill.

I would like you to post a PvE primary Discord build with pve skills

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Another part is skill slot and character slot cost.

To get effective physical way you want: Curses, Blood,Certain PvE only skills, Ideally certain paragon shouts

Please post all PvE paragon shout skills. otherwise you just need a primary curses build.

As has been mentioned, in a 6 hero team build a hero blood nec (orders) may questionably not the most productive, lets say we use a derv orders instead.. i personally believe a hero paragon, with mainly command skills will augment the dmg to a degree that overwhelms the healing need from an orders derv.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

To get good yield you also want to build against foes (condition removal, antiblock, hex removal ...).

Stuff you can not put on your physicals, so unless you are necromancer, you end up with one or two bitches.

Please read paragon skills, to say there are no condition removal or hex removal skills on a paragon is false. as for anti block a curses primary necro ( yes curses is part of a necromancers attributes) try using rigor mortis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I see physical way being gods of effectiveness they are claimed to be only with two players in 8 man areas. Then, they work as advertised.

Thank you for being a discord player that is willing to admit that in some areas a team of two players can massively out perform a 6 discord hero build

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Difference is, discord is much simpler and less dependable on rest of party, damage dealers can comfortably carry their own bitch-stuff (which is so simple that even henchmen sometimes carry it.).

There have been no arguments on this point from any pro physway poster, unless it is that phys heroes cannot carry "bitch stuff", this all depends on what you would classify as "bitch skills".
Discord is an easy to use and mostly competent 4 Hero 4 Hench build, it requires little to no microing while proving itself to be usefull in most areas both in NM and HM.
It will not however compete with a 2 player 6 hero physway build even in the best circumstances in most areas of the game

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

I would like you to post a PvE primary Discord build with pve skills

Is this a trick question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Please post all PvE paragon shout skills. otherwise you just need a primary curses build.

wtf? seriously? i do not follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

As has been mentioned, in a 6 hero team build a hero blood nec (orders) may questionably not the most productive, lets say we use a derv orders instead.. i personally believe a hero paragon, with mainly command skills will augment the dmg to a degree that overwhelms the healing need from an orders derv.

Um, that is what i meant by 'certain paragon shouts'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Please read paragon skills, to say there are no condition removal or hex removal skills on a paragon is false. as for anti block a curses primary necro ( yes curses is part of a necromancers attributes) try using rigor mortis.

No kidding, you tell me that necromancers have curses and can ... GASP ... prevent blocking? Oh my!

Look, paragon condition removals suck, plain simple. their hex removals do not work on physway. Best thing paragon can bring in this regard is something like [Empathic Removal]. That costs elite and casting time (and thanks to AR must be microed). Smart money is on someone having to bring something.

I take it your reading comprehension or faith in humanity is a little low and your tendency to condescend a little high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Thank you for being a discord player that is willing to admit that in some areas a team of two players can massively out perform a 6 discord hero build

Maybe a bit too high. please, remeber this: Though yes, its a bitch fest, a troll thread designed to aggravate ... no need to react exactly in this style, now is there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

There have been no arguments on this point from any pro physway poster, unless it is that phys heroes cannot carry "bitch stuff", this all depends on what you would classify as "bitch skills".
Discord is an easy to use and mostly competent 4 Hero 4 Hench build, it requires little to no microing while proving itself to be usefull in most areas both in NM and HM.
It will not however compete with a 2 player 6 hero physway build even in the best circumstances in most areas of the game

Of course H/H build will not compete with H+H build.

Anyhow, 'most' areas in game? Pray tell, how much prophecies is 4/6 man? That is where discords power curve is high above physway.

You also should think about this: Not everyone who wants to do HM and roll areas is compatible with either build. How realistic is it for, say, Mesmer running effective physway and effective discord?

The Riven · Jun 02, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Anyhow, 'most' areas in game? Pray tell, how much prophecies is 4/6 man? That is where discords power curve is high above physway.

There are 56 areas in the game that require you to bring 6 players be it H/H or real people.

There are 80 areas where an 8 player setup is required.

that itself justifies "most", are you now claiming that if we reduce the number of phys players the dmg becomes comparable to discord or are you saying that the fewer players per area (these again can be h/h or real people) the better discord becomes?

Either way, as i and many others have posted discord while being more than viable is not the only team build that works nor is it the best at either dps, spikes or balanced team builds. It mainly depend on your profession, an ER ele will not always see the same gains as curses necro, a monk primary may be better off running a RoJ team, there are always going to be variables in any team build.

Ratson Itamar · Jun 02, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

It mainly depend on your profession, an ER ele will not always see the same gains as curses necro, a monk primary may be better off running a RoJ team, there are always going to be variables in any team build.

We're in the Necromancer forums, are we not?
I'm not going to break down every post you make to hundred parts and take it out of context like you and others seem to do in this thread, but I will say this; I'm out until the atmosphere clears, have fun.